Ahmad and I had been organizing an interview with Ben Weinman of DEP, and sometime on Monday/Tuesday, we finally got it happening. Ahmad (A.K.A. Buttons) spoke with Ben covering some interesting points on quite a few different topics.
You can read the transcript of the interview below, or alternatively listen to it via the player that follows. Many thanks to Ben for his time, and to Ahmad for kicking ass beyond the call of duty.
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An Interview With Ben Weinman of The Dillinger Escape Plan
Ben Weinman is best known for being the sole original remaining member of U.S. band The Dillinger Escape Plan (TDEP/DEP). The band, commonly known to have given birth to the genre "mathcore", a term that nearly fits, are renown for the extreme complexity of their music, the hardcore intensity of their live performances and the diversity in sound. Ben states that "[he] was pretty much the main song-writer from the start", but emphasizes that other members of the band contribute creatively in different ways. Not where it's at the point where people engage in heated arguments, but with the members participating positively and working towards progression as a whole.
Spreading Like Wings caught Ben while DEP were on tour in Belgium, "home of the waffles", though Ben finds the waffles over there to be too sugary. Ahmad ran through the questions, and I wrapped it all up.
--Adrian
I. "The important thing for Dillinger is to keep moving forward and progressing."
Ahmad: Since you're the only [original] remaining member of the band [and there have been numerous] changes of the line-up, has [this] really changed the direction of the band, or it's sound? Or do people just assimilate to what Dillinger is already?
Ben: Well, I mean, that's a good question. You know, Greg [Puciato’s] been in the band for a good amount of time-- a really long time at this point--and Liam [Wilson] was in the band a little bit longer than that, even, so most people that even know our band at this point, or really care about our band, are people that have only seen us with Greg and Liam, you know?
As far as when we first started, and the ideas we first started with... I don't know. I think I was pretty much the main song-writer from the start. And so, as far as the ideas we start with and the direction we go in, musically things have pretty much stayed the same.
Obviously, changing drummers was something we thought was going to be really difficult--and it was difficult--because of the fact that Chris was such an important part of our sound. But the truth is that drums don't write songs. Dillinger obviously, and what we do, involves a really great drummer. But there are a lot of really great drummers and we found one and Gil's assimilated to our sound and added some new things. The important thing for Dillinger is to keep moving forward and progressing. And that's what I wanted to do, to keep writing songs and surrounding myself in people that are adding to that vision and are pushing it further. And that's what we've done. I think it's just a bit of a positive thing.
Ahmad: I have a question sort of related to that: Lots of times when you're a fan of a band, I don't like Metallica, but say if you're a fan of the Metallica of the 80s and they turn into what they are now. Lots of people shout "sell out" and they don't like the new stuff. How do you feel about that. Because something like
Under the Running Board and now
Ire Works are not really the same album [with] different influences and whatnot. How do you approach that?
Ben: Obviously, when we first started, our motivations have been in some ways the same, in some ways different. You can't help but change throughout your life. I started this band 11 years ago, I was just a kid. So, obviously when we first started, I never even thought anyone would even like the band. My goal was to play in front of anyone. We could play a show -- that was a success. If I could play a show on the weekend and go back to school and do my homework and move on with my life, that was successful.
[There was] this idea that there was this sound inside our heads and inside my head, and we all decided to to create this, that we need that [which] we thought that was missing from our collection that we really wanted to hear.
And it was an amalgamation of what was going on, the bands that we were playing in, and what was missing in the little scene we were in. And that's what we did. And as we started to move forward and things started to change, and it started to become, "well, there's enough demand to go on tour", "there's enough demand where there’s people who know our songs when we go on show" and stuff like that.
There have been a lot of changes in attitude. When we first started, I don't even think I ever really played notes on the guitar. All I did was throw the guitar around. I remember playing shows for 10 people and barely playing the guitar. And then it got to the point where people knew our songs, and they absolutely expected to hear the songs that they knew and they liked, and I was like "Wow, we better start to be more professional and playing this for real". And so then the stage show picked it up and that way when we started to perform the songs for real and what we're doing and caring about sound. I mean, I didn't even use equipment. I'd show up to a show and ask the band if I could borrow their amp. I didn't even have an amp when we first started. I'd pretty much break a guitar every show and then on the way to the next show we'd stop at any shitty music store and I'd be like "What's the cheapest guitar that you have?" and it used to be some used guitar with stickers on it because everybody buys a guitar and thinks it be easy and then sells it back to the store, you know? [
Laughs] It's usually covered in horrible stickers and things like that. And I would buy that guitar and play that at the next show. I used to carry around my pick-up, a good pick-up and put it in the guitar every show. Just get any guitar. And so I mean, things have changed a great deal just on the level of professionalism.
And then as time's gone by we've gotten older and it's like "Wow", you know. Like now, all of a sudden, people expect us to sound a certain way. When we started, people kind of shunned us because we didn't sound like the other bands and now, all of a sudden, people want us to sound like ourselves. And so I'm like, "How can we sound like ourselves?". I mean, we determine our sound, and not you. So we've just always tried to continue to write music that we want to hear. Just like day one. And try to present it in the most professional way possible once we do it, and if you like it, you do, if you don't, you don't.
II. The ‘Dillinger Gang’: Changes in Line-Up
Ahmad: Speaking of the band, you guys formed in 1997, correct?
Ben: Yeah
Ahmad: Everybody knows you've had about 10 different members. Besides Chris [Pennie], because I think you guys don't talk to him yet.
Ben: We've actually had 11 different member changes
Ahmad: 11?
Ben: I just figured that out the other day; 11 member changes in 11 years.
Ahmad: I guessed that number actually!
Ben: That's pretty good. [
Laughs]
Ahmad: Besides Chris, how many of the guys do you still talk to?
Ben: I talk to every single person who's ever been in this band, pretty much, except for Chris. And we're good friends with everybody. We're all still really good friends. Almost everybody who's been a part of this band whether they've worked with us, been a crew guy or played with the band or whatever, we're still friends and we still consider them a part of kind of the Dillinger Gang, you know? But the Chris situation was so bizarre. And that was such a bitter situation. And unfortunately that did not paint out in the same way.
Ahmad: Aren't you guys playing Download and so is he [Chris]?
Ben: I think so, I don't know if it's the same day or not.
Me: Oh, yeah I forgot. It's like a three day festival.
Ben: Yeah. But if it is, I'm sure he'll do everything in his powers to avoid me.
Me: Are you going to fight him [Chris]? Please fight him.
Ben: [
Laughs] No. I don't have any interest in that. Like, you know, it's funny because we actually practice at the same practice space. And most of the time we're not home at the same times because he's busy touring with Coheed and we're busy touring and stuff like that, but one day we went there and he was there and the guys went down the stairs and saw him, and actually Gil [Sharone] saw him and talked to him. They talked, you know. And I guess he asked if I was there and he was like "Oh, he's coming down" and all of a sudden he's found a back door and just escaped. [
Laughs] I doubt that--if he has anything to with it--we'll ever talk.
Ahmad: How's Brian [Benoit]?
Ben: He's alright. I haven't talked to him in a while. He's moved back to Virginia. It's interesting because a lot of people consider Brian leaving the band, or having to leave the band, a new thing/sting. But the truth is he hasn't played with us for years. We had a fill-in guitar player for like 2 or 3 years. But we never announced officially that he was out of the band because we hoped he'd get better and be able to come back and play and he didn't. So recently, we announced Jeff our new guitar player and a lot of people are acting like this is new and it's funny because I'm like, “Brian has not played in this band for three years--four years.” I'm like, “He has been out of the game for a very long time.” We had James Love playing guitar for a while and now Jeff [Tuttle]. I think a lot of kids even thought James was Brian because we just never officially made an announcement that Brian wasn't playing with us anymore and unfortunately he's just kind of moved on and isn't able to play at the ability that he was. So he's living in Virginia and he works and that's where he's from, and where his friends are from. So I don't get to see him very often. But, you know, I think he' doing OK.
Ahmad: How's it going with Jeff [Tuttle] now?
Ben: Things are good.
Ahmad: Is he going to contribute, assuming that he'll be around, for the
new Dillinger album?
Ben: Well, I mean, I don't know. I never really thought about it. The truth is that, you know, I don't know. Right now it's pretty clear that the main core of the band at this point is myself, Greg and Liam, you know? Because we're the ones that have been here. Right now, I feel that there's a kind of a... In the past there was issues with... You know, it sucked not having Brian and Chris around for this record, but at the same time it made things hard for me. It put a lot of weight on my shoulders. But at the same time that weight has always been good for this band. When we did
Calculating Infinity our guitar player had to quit and our bass player was paralyzed and I was pretty much stuck with the weight of recording all the instruments and writing all the songs and everything, and I thought that pressure was good. ‘Cause I just know as a person when that weights on my shoulders I won't lose. I refuse to lose. And that's part of what's driven this band.
The attitude of everyone in this band is to be that competitive. So when we did
Ire Works, there was a similar vibe with what was going on with
Calculating, it was like “Oh my god, how are we going to move forward?”, “How are we going to do this?” and I thought it was a good thing, a good pressure. So, I know that not having to compromise my creativity too much with other guys in the band, although it sucked and there was a lot of weight on me and I missed having that interaction and I think in one way it was good because I just got to focus on my vision and, you know, make a record, and allow the other guys to add their influence to my direction, you know what I mean? As opposed to having a bunch of guys arguing over this and that and whatever. Right now we're happy with the way the creative situation is. But Jeff's a great guitar player and his other bands were really cool so I'm sure he'll contribute creatively in someway. I just don't know how yet.
III. The “Radiohead of Metalcore”: Silly Genre Terms and Old Media
Ahmad: On that note on
Ire Works, I read some review where they were
talking about how you're the “Radiohead of metalcore” [Editors note: Ahmad is referring to the review of
Ire Works by All Music Guide, where they state that “If DEP aren't careful and continue down this innovative path, they could easily be labeled the Radiohead of metalcore”]
Ben: [
Laughs]
Ahmad: First, i don't even think you're metalcore, so alright... but--
Ben: --That’s such a funny word
Ahmad: Is that even still a genre? Like the last metalcore band I heard
was Atreyu and I was like 12.
Ben: I understand the term. I think there is some relevance to the term. There are bands out there that are not hardcore and they're not metal straight up, they're kind of influenced by both. So I understand the amalgamation of the words ‘metal’ ‘core’, you know? I definitely do. But I just associate so much bad music with it.
Ahmad: As do I.
Ben: It's just unfortunate that the term itself just sounds silly because you associate it with so much horrible music.
Ahmad: Speaking of that actually, metalcore.. a lot of people refer to you as Mathcore. Is that as silly to you as it is to, maybe, me?
Ben: We really have magazines to blame for this shit. Because people who review records and people who write articles have to compare you to something. They have no real creativity. It's real easy to just compare you to things that came before you. And I think personally like magazines are pretty horrible, and I'm really getting sick of them and I think they ruin music and ruin art and they judge bands on the wrong things most of the time. And they think people who review CDs think they're more important than somebody, some kid. They think their opinion means more because they somehow whistled their way into a magazine. I don't know man, I just can't take any of it really seriously. I care more about what like some fan or some kid thinks of us then how somebody labels it, labels our music or labels other bands or compares us...
I read everyday some band and it says "If you like this band...", you know? "If you like DEP, check out this band" or, you know, "it sounds like DEP" or something like that.
Ahmad: I've done that. I've looked at those bands that are supposed to sound like you and they don't. And they do this because that's what they want you to listen to.
Ben: Yeah, I mean, I just find that if it's easily compared then it's usually not very good.
Ahmad: That kind of media, is dying I would think. With iTunes and bands like NIN and Radiohead, what do you guys think you're going to do in the next 4-5 years? Are you going to self-release your album?
Ben: You mean business wise? In that respect?
Ahmad: Yeah, something like a Radiohead or NIN.
Ben: Yeah, well I definitely think that's pretty much the future. I think that record sales don't really mean anything anymore. I mean, our record is not selling that great, like scanwise, it's not the biggest selling record right now, but we're twice the size a band right now. We're playing in Europe and we're selling out some shit fuck town in the middle of Germany that no-one's even heard of and there's like a thousand kids there. I mean, I know bands that couldn't do that that have sold 3 times as many records as us. You know what I mean? And it's been really weird because we've never been a bigger band then we are now. Our record doesn't seem to scan like a trillion records, and it's obvious that we're an example of the new future, of the new media, the new band, whatever you want to call it. How things are really doesn't matter. And we've also got a lot of smarter fans than a lot of other bands so they're more likely to download your music and find it in other ways and copy it and trade and things like that. So in one respect, I'm kind of proud of that. And in the other respect it makes things hard for us on a business front because people still judge the relevance of your band by things like SoundScan. There's an interview in Revovler -- an article in Revolver about us. The guy spent seriously like 6 months writing this fucking thing. And they put us as their number two record of the year, yet they're still like Shadow's Fall on the cover every day or something, you know what I mean? Like the fact is that we didn't SoundScan as many records as another band so they'll put us as their number 2 record of the year and they'll say that our record was the greatest record ever and this and that and whatever but like the whole article's about how surprisingly we haven't SoundScanned a shit-tonne of records. And that's pretty hard.
Ahmad: You'd think that they'd understand that it's 2008 and things are completely different than 1998 when Limp Bizkit sold however as many records.
Ben: Well, you know. The fact is that that doesn't determine your relevance or how important you are anymore. And that's just clear. Bands like NIN were selling 10 million records every time are selling 600 000 records now. I mean 600 000 records or something, you know, a NIN record selling, but they still fill stadiums. It just doesn't fucking matter. And again, that's just another problem where people just refuse to catch up to the times. They're still trying to hang on and refuse to realise that while OK we're part of the problem but we refuse to adapt to it, you know? I'm just going to continue to ignore it, you know?
And record labels are the same. So we got record labels talking to us every day. We're just about--pretty much--out of our deal with Relapse right now and I'm not saying that we're not going to be doing anything more with them but the fact is that we are open to talk to other labels and stuff and I really don't even listen to them that much. I really don't listen a lot. They'll talk to me and they call me. I respect them and what they do and I brainstorm with them. I talk possibilities, but it doesn't really excite me. I don't really care. We're out here touring, we're being a real band and we're playing shows and we're supporting our record and every day something new happens, whether it's the NIN thing or the Radiohead thing or whatever, so I know that when we're ready to release another record I think the answer will be apparent of how we should do it. And it may be with a label, it may not be with a label. It may be with corporate sponsorship or something so that everyone can have it for free. I don't know. Either way. I just think that there's new ways of doing things and it's clear. And I think that when we're ready to put out another record it will be clear of what’s the right way to do it.
IV. New DVD in the works.
Ahmad: So your contract with Relapse is almost finished, I suppose?
Ben: Yeah
Ahmad: I think I read somewhere that you had to do a DVD?
Ben: Yeah, we're going to be doing one more video with them.
Ahmad: Is it going to be a documentary or...
Ben: Well, it's going to be mostly about the earlier years of the band with Dimitri. And it's interesting because a lot of people are excited to see some of that early footage. Like most of the people that are in the band now saw us and they never heard of us then when we had Dimitri [Minakakis]and Adam [Doll] and all those other guys in the band. And I just remember it being such a crazy time. I was just playing in basements, us playing in VFW halls and stuff. And like I said, not really playing that much notes, not being very good at guitar and... you know what I mean? And then I look at some of the old footage thinking it's going to be the most insane thing ever, you know? And we're like so much crazier now. I mean, I watch it and I'm like, “Wow”. But for back then bands weren't really that active on stage. Bands weren't really doing anything exciting or playing anything most different so I guess at the time it was something different but now I watch it and it's like, “My, God”. It's funny because it's 11 years later and I'm 11 years older and we have so much more fire and so much more passion now then we did then and that's kind of what's so exciting to me about looking at that old footage. Not nostalgia looking back and being "that was so awesome" but the fact that we've come this far and we still have this fire and this energy. It's growing and gotten crazier and more intense.
Ahmad: How much footage do you have of the old days?
Ben: We've got a lot. We've got like kids who back in the day we put something out on our MySpace, on our website like, “if you have old footage let us know send it in”. We've got a decent amount. The hard part is going through it and finding stuff that we think is cool to look at. It's all interesting, you know? There's going to be some interviews with Adam and Dimitri and some of the other guys in the band and people who are around the band and friends and people who were just working with the band at the time, and so it's going to be cool. I think it's going to be really interesting.
Ahmad: You guys don't make many music videos, so do you feel that the music video is dead?
Ben: I don't. I think it's more important than ever but mostly for online purposes, you know? Obviously there aren't a whole lot of platforms for videos now days considering most of the video channels just play TV shows and stuff like that. But I think it's just as important because there are so many different mediums, different platforms for video play whether it be like YouTube or whatever. You know, we were away for... We're in Europe right now. We haven't been in Europe for over 3 years. And I thought coming here I was like, “I hope we're at least the same size as we were three years ago, but it's not likely since we've been gone so long.” And we're 3 times as big. Like we're playing places in Sweden where there were like 40 people last time and now it's like packed to the back of the wall. And kids are flipping out. And I'm like, “How could that happen?”, it's not like we signed to some other label and there's tons more promotion and it's not like... you know? It's like what could it be? And the only thing I can attribute it to is things like YouTube and MySpace and the web and people spreading the word and people seeing videos of us in NY or Philly, you know and things like that. Because now some kid in Germany who used to look at us like we had four heads is pretty much---dresses, looks, and acts just like someone from Philly or NY or LA. You know, they're flipping out, they're like... It's like the same show. The world has just melted together, you know? And so I think things like videos, whether it’s live videos or its music videos, professional music videos or whatever are just as important if not more important than ever because there are so many more ways people can see them and access them and just experience them.
IV. Musical Influences: “I feel like those guys are just completely thinking outside the box always and they really are creative and changing things up and trying new things is a huge part of what they do as opposed to being stuck to some border line and stuck to some genre.”
Ahmad: I have a couple more questions and then I'm assuming you have to go because I think I heard you say--
Ben: --Yeah, they're sound checking without me right now. [
Laughs]
Ahmad: I was always kind of interested, because I don't know the answer to this, but what are your favorite musicians, bands, that kind of stuff, because I never read anything about that.
Ben: Ah, favorite musicians.... I mean, guitar wise I've always liked fusion guys and anything from someone like Slash to Stevie Ray Vaughn, to John McLaughlin from Mahavishnu Orchestra, to Robert Fripp from King Crimson--all those guys have influenced me. I've never been into a whole lot of the glam metal shred guitar players like Yngwie Malmsteen, or anything like that, but I can't say that I... You know, I just like eclectic song writers a lot. Like people like Sting and even like, I listen to things like Fiona Apple a lot and you know. And electronic music and IDM music has a huge influence on me because I feel like those guys are just completely thinking outside the box always and they really are creative and changing things up and trying new things is a huge part of what they do as opposed to being stuck to some borderline and stuck to some genre. That's always something we've tried to stay away from, being stuck into some box and as you can tell by just that diversity in our music now. Yeah, so I mean those kind of eccletic song writers are things I listen to more than just a specific musician or anything like that. I'll listen to like Peter Gabriel or something and just listen to all the layers of sound and things going on and just really appreciate the way they've approached it.
Ahmad: Since you're from NJ and so am I, how is it? Because Greg's from Baltimore and Liam's from Philly, and Jeff's from Michigan, and Gil's from LA. I've met people from those places and it's sometimes hard for me to get along with them. So for you, is it by chance or how does that work out, because I'm assuming that you have a musical vibe; what's different?
Ben: Well I can't say that they're... Definitely Detroit and Baltimore and NJ and Philly do have a lot more in common than NJ and like Hollywood, that's for sure. [
Laughs] And although we all come from different places to some degree... You know Greg straight up comes from the ghetto of Baltimore and yeah, I mean he literally grew up and has been shot at, you know things like that? [
Laughs] And you know, I come from the suburbs from pretty much where the misfits and stuff come from and like a lot of suburban shit . You know, we come from the land of MCR [My Chemical Romance] and stuff like that. [
Laughs]
Ahmad: I'm always proud to tell people that NJ has given birth to MCR and --
Ben: There you go, and The Boss [Bruce Springsteen]!
Ahmad: The Boss! I was going to say that.
Ben: It's definitely a bit weird once since we've gotten along so great with Gil when we first met him. There are so many similarities with our personalities and me and him get along really good because we're both business minded and really into the music side of things, which is rare to be into both sides of it so much. So me and him get along really well. We just sit there and talk business. He'll just sit there and ask me for a shit-tonne of money and I'll be, “No!” and then we'll go out and have an ice-cream sundae together. Whereas other people, that relationship is very difficult. But there's definitely some weird things like we aren't used to... Like he came from Hollywood where bands don't really tour a great deal. They kind of just spawn and play shows and try to get signed, you know? Most bands from Hollywood and Orange County and those places get signed before they even tour, you know. System of the Down's first tour, I remember, they played LA a tonne of times, they got signed, did a record deal and went on a tour with Slayer. That was their first tour and that's the hollywood scene. So yeah, it was definitely a little bit weird at first because we came from different places, but really quickly assimilated once they're touring with us and are seeing what it's all about. It's not about this or that or I did session work with this guy or I did session work with that guy it's about coming out and kicking ass every night, night after night and just as a unit. And it was really quick that we all just kind of assimilated. And that's what happens with Dillinger, when people join the band they just kind of mold into this monster, you know. And we're all very very, especially now, (and it's weird now that Chris isn't in the band) we're seriously like all on the same page. We're all driven towards the same goals every night and it's interesting to see how powerful that is. Because in the past we were all very competitive, we were all very aggressive, but it was more an individual thing. But now, when something comes together as a unit it comes out at you with a sharp point instead of a blunt object coming at you, you know? We're all focussed towards the same thing. It's just so much more powerful.
Ahmad and Ben at a DEP Show (Doylestown, Pennsylvania Dec 15, 2007)
Raw audio:(Note: it's pretty hard to hear the audio in quite a few sections, so if you've skipped the transcript, I'd advise you to read that either before you listen to the audio or in conjunction with the audio).
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Labels: Ben Weinman, Buttons, Interviews, Special Features
